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New Post 2/26/2010 5:30 PM
User is offline Teejay
6 posts
No Ranking


Please help - Tdi or TD5 or Landcruiser? 

 Hi Guys

I need your expert advice please. I'm very keen to get a 2008 Defender 110 Tdi Puma but have heard conflicting reports that the TD5 is better (more powerful) but has too many electronics. Then I have been told to stay away from Landrovers completely due to their unreliability and constant maintenance required and rather get a Toyota Lancruiser. The thing is I really like the look of the Landrover Defender but must admit I have never owned a 4X4 nor do I have any knowledge of them. My idea is to live in the vehicle (as my permanent abode) and our the country on as many dirt roads as I can find - no hurry - no need to do 120 on tar etc. Any advice, comments, suggestions will be welcomed. Thank you!

Trevor

 
New Post 2/28/2010 7:43 PM
User is offline Dave
212 posts
4th Level Poster


Re: Please help - Tdi or TD5 or Landcruiser? 
Modified By Dave  on 2/28/2010 8:49:57 PM)

 Hi Teejay

If you want an unbiased , independent view of the relative merits of Landy vs Land Cruiser , you have come to the right place -  nothing but the truth to be found in these forums  !

Seriously , though, I will give you my opinion . Many Landy owners might disagree and more Land Cruiser owners will surely disagree . So you be the judge.....

Firstly , the question of reliability.. There is reason for the anti LR brigade to mouth off about Land Rover reliability. But this reputation has now got a life of its own :

In the late 90's and early 2000 ' buying a new Defender or Discovery was like playing Russian roulette - some owners were lucky - many were unhappy. Why ?  Inadequate engineering standards on the new TD5 engine and inadequate quality control , driven by typical British union dominated systems.By 2005 the TD5 was sorted and Ford had bought LR and were not afraid to demand quality - or else "dont come Monday"

The result : Disco 3 and Disco 4 which are clear world leaders in engineering excellence , with the best levels of production quality control.

So , what about the Defender? Unfortunately the Defender has not yet reached the same same levels of assembly line quality control - so that even now  new Defenders have the odd glitch. The good news is that if you buy a good used Defender (Puma , TD5  or Tdi ) it will have been sorted out and will be reliable.

The secret is in the selection.. Get a good one and I am sure it will be at least as reliable as a Land Cruiser , despite what some of the "captive media loud mouths " bleat on about.

Just today the following post was placed on the 4x4community website , which illustrates my point .It is a scenario that is repeating itself more and more often :

 

Namib dune tour

I just returned from a great experience, the Luderitz Walvisbay Namib desert tour. It started on 21 Feb at Luderitz and ended on 26 Feb in Walvisbay. Our group consists of my 130 Puma D/C. one Ford Ranger 4.0L D/C, one V6 Prado and three Cruiser S/W 100 VX (one diesel and two 4500 EFI)

The two support vehicls were also 4500 EFI Toyota Land Cruiser Bakkies.

When we started I was hammered with the normal Land Rover teasing and ask to release the hand brake of the Landy when taking on the dunes. I must admit the diesels are not fully equiped with power to take on the very high dunes but done on all the other dunes with the big 4.5 liter EFI petrol Cruisers.

The Land Rover and the Ford were the only cars not damaged or broke down during the trip.

All three 100VX's were repaired in the desert. One broke the diff lock electrical switch and the stabiliser arm at the back, the other one's outomatic gearbox overheat and broke an engin mounting and the last one took a dune to fast and
bend the nudge bar in the grill broke the cowley and the starter motor broke down (this car belongs and was driven by a well known motor journalist - his mouth was also the biggest against the Landy, after these repairs he was reminded that the Landy never broke down and was not towed to start during the trip)
The Landy's toolbox with the required bolts, nuts and spanners was used to fix these Cruisers in the Desert.

My experience was as follows: The Landy CAN do the job with ease. The two most steep dunes were not done by any diesel on this trip, only with the V6 Prado and Ford as well as two of the 4500EFI Cruisers. The Prado with the V6 done the best of all cars but tore off the rear bumper.

I only used 4L when climbing steep hard surface slopes and used 2H, 3H and 4H on all the dunes to built momentum and 1H to go down the slip face of the dune. I used the normal 235x86x16 tyres, this was a mistake as you need more flotation on the very soft loose and fine sand of the Namib. Tyre pressure was 0.8 front and back and the 130D/C was not loaded, only my camping gear, 60 L of water and 90 L of diesel. Fuel consumpsion was high at 3.6 L per Km on this 650 Km Desert trip.

What will I change next time, three things: one 265X75x16 Mud Terrain BFG's or bigger, upgrade the engin output with a chip and fit a snorkel to reduce the intake temp to obtain cleaner air. 

I will reccommend this trip to every body as it is a great experience, specially the long slip faces to manuvere and the climbing of long dune with speed.

Regards,
 
Without doubt the Land Cruiser has been a formidable performer in the off road scene. But I believe its day has come and gone , just like the dinosaur....Fuel inefficiency will kill it dead...
Be aware  that a Cruiser can be expected to use twice as much fuel as a Defender . Some will say , so what,  I can afford it. So be it - but I can relate a story of a trip though the bush in Moz that I did in the company of a Cruiser and a few other jap  vehicles , in my Tdi Defender - 600 km. The Cruiser carried  extra jerry cans of fuel  and topped up half way . The Defender had no extra jerry cans - by the time we reached our destination the other drivers were all looking anxiously for a fuel station. The Defenders fuel gauge was still over half ...So fuel consumption is more than just a money matter - it is  freedom from "Empty Tank Phobia".
 
With regards to the Defender and its user friendliness , most people who have driven them love them and their families love them. But .some people report that the driving position is uncomfortable , and that the car is too noisy.
Take one for a long leisurely test drive - you will know then whether the Defender likes you  and whether you will be able to enjoy  the friendly wave that you will give to every other Landy driver.
 
Enjoy the Best Car Ever 
Dave

 

 
New Post 3/1/2010 10:34 AM
User is offline Teejay
6 posts
No Ranking


Re: Please help - Tdi or TD5 or Landcruiser? 

 Hi Dave

Firstly - thank you so much for taking the time and effort to reply to me - I really appreciate this! Thanks also for that interesting trip report. If I may be so bold to ask a few more questions, I would appreciate your comments....

1. Fuel consumption is an important factor to me - is it much of a muchness in terms of fuel consumption between the TD5, Tdi and Disco 2,3,4? - when comparing diesels of each of these?

2. Someone advised me to stay away from a diesel Defender and rather go for the petrol - but this makes no sense to me? Any comments you have in terms of diesel vs petrol will be appreciated.

3. Is the Disco a better vehicle than the Defender - I realise this is a very strange/unfair question to ask - ha ha - but what I'm asking is - would I be better off buying say a Disco 2 than a Defender? I don't like the looks of the Disco - looks top heavy to me and impractical in terms of fitting rooftop carrier etc.

4. Would it be better to get a Defender Tdi or Td5 - again - probably an unfair question - my understanding is that the TD5 has more electronics that can go wrong but it is more powerful than the Tdi. The Tdi is simpler and easier to fix. Fuel consumption figures would be a deciding factor if they were vastly different between the 2.

Thanks again for your time. Hopefully one day I can return the favour in some way.

Kind regards

Trevor

 
New Post 3/1/2010 11:53 AM
User is offline Dave
212 posts
4th Level Poster


Re: Please help - Tdi or TD5 or Landcruiser? 

 Hi Teejay

I own a Disco 2 TD5 and a Defender 300Tdi  - I love them both - and they are very different vehicles. A few pointers :

  • Dont be afraid of the TD5 -  electronics - can be mastered and understood .
  • The Tdi will give 10 km /l , the Td5 9 km/l
  • The big advantage of a Disco is that it is generally significantly cheaper than an equivalent Defender  to buy( why ??) . The advantage of the Defender is that it is far more adaptable - a drill and rivets are all you need to modify its body.It is also cheaper to repair - eg a stop light lens on the Defender costs R14. On a Disco 2 or Land Cruiser I guess you will look at about R1000. Nuff said ?
  • I have a lot of respect for the Tdi , largely because of the aspects you mention.The problem is that the last one was built in 98 - you will battle to find a good low mileage one
  • There is a brilliant alternative. Land Rover , until very recently , marketed a special edition of the Defender : The Kalahari . This had the Tdi engine. Find a good one of these and buy it ..(this was not promoted by land Rover , but was available on special request to those owners who had a phobia about electronics.)
  • There is a general feeling amongst a lot of people that a used turbo diesel is not a wise buy.This is because a TD is vulnerable to abuse, and a previous owner might have caused damage that is not obvious. I bought my Disco 2 , despite all the doom sayers warning me - I had a budget of an extra R40 000 to cover unexpected TD hassles - I still have the R40 000 , plus interest. I bought my Defender , a lot older and more obviously used.  I budgeted R10 000 for such repairs . I spent R7500 .
  • But it is essential to have a used TD thoroughly checked and the AA are not necessarily the best..
  • So ,  petrol is in many ways much nicer than a diesel - but if you want to go off road , and visit exotic places - the petrol alternative is actually not an alternative because of heavy fuel consumption..By the way I forgot to mention that the Tdi is a great "plodder" . If you are not in a hurry it will deliver superb fuel economy- up to 12 km/l. Some years ago I did a trip in  a Disco 1 Tdi - from Chobe river south through Moremi ,Maun etc. The first part of the trip was done in heavy sand - then we were hit by heavy flood conditions and the second half was done in deep mud , with many recoveries. After seriously battling our way through to Maun , I filled up again .. Guess what ..8km/l.  There is no other 4x4 that would have got through that trip and even come close to 8 km/l. Where the Tdi is not good is on high sand dune climbs . Its 80kw  is simply not enough to rocket 2 ton  up a Namib dune.
  • Hope that helps - come back for more if need be.
  • Dave
  •  

 

  •  

 

 
New Post 3/1/2010 4:23 PM
User is offline Teejay
6 posts
No Ranking


Re: Please help - Tdi or TD5 or Landcruiser? 

 Hi Dave

Thanks again for the valuable info. I see people generally don't comment much on this forum - it's a pity because one can share and learn so much. I belong to the Wilddog (dual sport motorbike forum) and people share, comment and help each other so much there. I see you mention the Tdi was last produced in 1998. The one I have been interested in is a Puma 2007 or 2008 model - apparently it has the Tdi motor (as opposed to Td5). Did Landrover just "rename" some models - like the Kalahari, Puma etc but they all have the same Tdi motors?

I see you're quite active on the forum with many posts, pictures etc - that's great!

I hope to be able to contribute in a meaningful way some day.

All the best!

Trevor

 
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